THE BEST MEDITATION APPS Updated October 10, 2024 By Caira Blackwell Caira Blackwell is a senior staff writer covering Sleep. She's tested a dozen mattresses at home—and yes, she tells

people she sleeps for a living. Life can be unpredictable, overwhelming, and just plain difficult. It’s often hard to find balance and easy to lose focus. That’s when a good meditation app

can help. We talked with three experts, researched 28 apps, and tested 19 of them. Headspace offers the best experience. Its courses are organized and simple to navigate. And Headspace

offers a daily personalized to-do list plus group sessions, which can create a sense of community and connection. HOW WE PICKED ------------------------- * Generous content We eliminated

you can build good meditation practices. * Clean interface A good meditation app should have a user-friendly design that’s easy to navigate and pleasant to look at. Learn more TOP PICK

HEADSPACE THE BEST MEDITATION APP This app has the largest variety of meditations, with guided sessions for beginners and less-structured programming for more-advanced practitioners. Its

rich library of meditations is well organized and easy to navigate. Headspace (iOS, Android; $70 per year) has a better mix of options than any app we tried, along with a fun interface and a

vast, well-organized library of meditations. Courses are clearly labeled and structured, and they advance gradually over multiple sessions, so it’s easier to find the exact type of

meditation you desire and to stick with it. Some of Headspace’s courses give you the tools you need to improve your practice in general. Others are solution-driven meditations that focus on

anxiety, patience, self-esteem, and grief, to name a few. Short, one-session meditations offer help during specific situations (for instance, pre-interview jitters or writer’s block) or

provide a quiet break whenever you have a moment. BEST FOR... CALM LESS-STRUCTURED MEDITATIONS, AMBIENT SOUNDSCAPES This app offers guided and unguided meditations that focus on relaxing in

general and keeping steady in tough times. It’s easy to personalize your experience. If you already meditate and are looking for strategies or features to enhance your practice, Calm (iOS,

Android; $70 per year) may be a better fit for you. In addition to guided sessions, it offers more free-form exercises and flexible meditation timers compared with Headspace, plus a

dedicated music section. Like Headspace, Calm records your stats, such as the number of sessions you’ve completed, but it also allows you to track your mood over time more frequently than

Headspace does. Calm also has a robust section for kids and allows users to send guests a free month of the service (or links to specific content, which don’t expire). BUDGET PICK HEALTHY

MINDS PROGRAM A BASIC MEDITATION APP THAT’S FREE Unburdened by bells and whistles, this free app offers a clear sequence of well-structured courses. It’s a great option for anyone who wants

to see if meditation is right for them. Healthy Minds Program (iOS, Android) is a free, no-frills app that centers on four key ideas: awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. Its content

is more user-friendly and goal-driven than that of other free apps—and many of the paid apps—we tried. Upon first use, this app prompts you to take a survey that gives you a score for each

of the four pillars—a baseline from which you can improve over time. You can choose from two teachers, adjust your course length in five-minute increments, and track your progress as you go

along. BUDGET PICK SMILING MIND A FREE APP AIMED AT YOUNGER PEOPLE This free option packages well-structured beginners courses in a lighthearted, simple app. It’s a particularly good choice

for kids and young adults. The Smiling Mind (iOS, Android) program aims to support children and teens in their mindfulness journeys. It has a clean interface that engages people with simple

animations and clear organization that makes it easy to navigate. It also has structured guidance with a 35-session beginner course, along with many other meditations on the app. Additional

features we like include the option to choose between two teachers for most meditations, adjust your course length in five-minute increments, and track your progress as you go along. WHY YOU

SHOULD TRUST US Since 2018, Wirecutter has consulted meditation experts and tested 19 apps. As a staff writer on Wirecutter’s sleep team, I’ve covered various health and self-care topics.

And I’ve written a range of reviews, including guides to weighted blankets, face sunscreens, and silk pillowcases. WHO THIS IS FOR With so many meditation apps available, it can be hard to

determine which one is right for you, or even if an app is what you need in the first place. After all, the essential tools for meditation—your body, mind, and breath—are already at your

disposal. And you have plenty of other options for learning to meditate. For instance, you could subscribe to the podcast from University of California Los Angeles’s Mindful Awareness

Research Center, find a free meditation video on YouTube, or try out the guide to meditation from The New York Times. For the cost of a yearlong subscription to a paid meditation app (or

less), you could also likely take a few classes at a local meditation center. What meditation apps do provide, however, is access to tools that will help you meditate whenever and wherever

you want to. The best apps also allow for a more-customizable experience (for instance, a short versus long meditation, or one to increase focus versus one to relax), as well as the

flexibility to hone your practice and advance at your own pace. They also often have extra tools—such as music for focusing while you work from home, bedtime stories for winding down, or

intention-driven workout videos—to help you lead a more mindful day-to-day existence. Nevertheless, as an informal approach to meditation, apps may not offer enough motivation or personal

guidance for those who are trying to build a new habit. They can also be expensive or (because they live on your phone) a source of distraction. If you find this to be the case, consider

joining a community such as r/Meditation on Reddit to help find physical spaces near you to practice. WHAT IS MINDFULNESS MEDITATION, AND HOW MIGHT IT HELP? There are many types of

meditation (including Transcendental Meditation and mantra meditation). But the most popular technique promoted by apps is mindfulness, which David Nichtern, a senior Buddhist teacher in the

lineage of Chögyam Trungpa, calls the “foundation” of all meditation practices. “You’re just learning to pay attention,” explained Nichtern, who consults on meditation for companies like

Goldman Sachs, Journey Meditation, and CreativeLive. Mindfulness meditation usually involves deep breathing, physical and mental awareness, and visualization. Even though meditation and

mindfulness practices have been around for thousands of years, studies on meditation are still relatively new. Thus far, scientific findings have been mixed, though some research has

suggested that meditation may ease symptoms of anxiety and depression, insomnia, and irritable bowel syndrome, as well as reduce blood pressure. Diana Winston, director of mindfulness

education at UCLA’s Mindful Awareness Research Center, pointed out that meditation can also be beneficial beyond the self: Studies have suggested that mindfulness meditation may boost

altruistic behavior. (Her mindfulness teachings have been featured on mindfulness apps, including Ten Percent Happier and Waking Up.) According to Dr. Judson Brewer, now a director of

research and innovation at the Mindfulness Center at Brown University, even if it appears that we’re not doing anything in particular, the mind may in fact be active. About 47% of our waking

life is spent analyzing ourselves, said Brewer, who has tested and developed a range of mindfulness-based apps. Although such analysis can be helpful, overdoing it can be associated with

disorders like depression and anxiety. Meditation can aid in keeping unhelpful brain activity in check. But on its own, it isn’t a panacea for mental health. Rather, meditation is simply a

helpful tool, especially when used in conjunction with visits to a health professional who can administer other proven forms of treatment, such as behavioral therapy. (Brewer created his own

app, Unwinding Anxiety, and has been featured on other mindfulness apps, including Simple Habit and Calm.) As for meditation-app programs in particular, there isn’t a wealth of research on

their effectiveness in terms of improved mental health and well-being compared with in-person guidance or none at all, according to Brewer and Winston. The few studies that do

exist—including a 2016 Journal of Happiness Studies paper, using Headspace—point to an app’s potential for disseminating mental health interventions more widely. But they also suggest that

more studies are needed to understand which type of meditation works best, and for who. HOW WE PICKED AND TESTED In evaluating meditation apps we looked for: A WIDE RANGE OF MEDITATIONS: A

good app should include guided meditations but also have hands-off options like timers for unguided meditations. It should offer meditations of varying lengths and allow you to download

meditations for offline use. BEGINNER COURSES: A curriculum with structured, easy-to-follow daily meditations can mean the difference between establishing a habit or falling off after just a

few days. We favored meditation sessions that weren’t so long that a beginner would feel overwhelmed. USER-FRIENDLY DESIGN: The layout should be clear and easy to navigate. REASONABLE TRIAL

PERIODS: Most paid apps offer a trial period or a few sample meditations before charging your credit card. The longer the trial period or the more free options available, the better you’ll

be able to decide if the app is right for you. COMPATIBILITY WITH A RANGE OF DEVICES: The app should be available for download on both iOS and Android systems, including iPads, tablets, and

other devices. EXTRA FEATURES: We appreciated apps that support other methods of relaxation, such as music and yoga instruction. We set up accounts for each app and eliminated the ones that

had frustrating user interfaces. Then we noted how many courses we could access for free on the paid apps before running into subscription paywalls. Finally, we paid to unlock any paywalls

so we could compare the range of offerings. We tried each beginner’s course, explored the workout sections, fell asleep to soundscapes, and joined live group-meditation sessions before

making our final picks. OUR PICK: HEADSPACE TOP PICK HEADSPACE THE BEST MEDITATION APP This app has the largest variety of meditations, with guided sessions for beginners and less-structured

programming for more-advanced practitioners. Its rich library of meditations is well organized and easy to navigate. WHO IT’S FOR: If you’re new to meditation or you think you’d benefit

from a routine guided meditation program, Headspace (iOS, Android) is likely the best option for you. HOW MUCH IT COSTS: $70 per year (individual), $100 per year (family), $10 per year

(student) THE CONTENT IS EASY TO PARSE. Headspace’s sessions are logically categorized, clearly labeled, and alphabetically organized. Content is divided by four main tabs: Meditation,

Sleep, Movement, and Music, plus the handy Today tab (where you’ll find a checklist of activities based on the courses you’ve started and the individual meditations you’ve frequented). THE

COURSES ARE COMPREHENSIVE. Its Basics curriculum, under the Meditation tab, includes extensive coursework for beginners (three levels, with 10 sessions each) and pros (eight levels, each

with 10 sessions). The app also has meditations for a diverse range of goals and situations, including multi-session courses (such as “Approaching Birth,” “Dealing With Regret,” “Politics

without Panic,” and “Finding Focus”), one-off sessions (like “Creative Writing” and “Waking Up”), and sessions for emergencies (including “Losing Your Temper” and “In Pain”). For more

experienced meditators, the app has a section of “timed” meditations that can be guided, semi-guided, or completely unguided. The length of these meditations can be toggled to last between 5

and 120 minutes. IT HAS MORE THAN ONE INSTRUCTOR. The meditations are led by five main teachers, and their tones are generally instructive yet soothing, without feeling too New Age-y. Most

of the meditations allow you to choose between at least two, which is helpful if you have preferences for a teacher’s voice or style. IT’S CONVENIENT AND ACCESSIBLE. The app lets you

download full packs of meditation courses for offline use, works across a number of devices, and syncs with Apple Health and Google Fit. And Headspace’s English content is made more

accessible with closed captions. THERE ARE VARIOUS MEDITATIONS FOR KIDS. Grouped by age (under 5, 6 to 9 years, and 9 to 12 years), they cover topics including dealing with separation,

settling down, and paying attention. IT’S NOT FREE, BUT YOU MAY BE ELIGIBLE FOR A FREE SUBSCRIPTION. While the app costs about $70 a year for an individual or $100 for a family plan that can

support up to six accounts, health-care workers can also find free access through partnerships with various organizations. If you work in a school with kids in kindergarten through 12th

grade, you may be able to sign up for a free subscription (beyond the free trial) via the Headspace for Educators program. FLAWS BUT NOT DEALBREAKERS THE INTERFACE MAY SEEM A BIT JUVENILE.

Headspace’s cutesy animations may be off-putting to some. In that case, try Calm or Healthy Minds Program. Both have more-subdued designs. YOU CAN’T CUSTOMIZE THE BACKGROUND MUSIC. Headspace

doesn’t have in-app options to play background music or soundscapes (such as ocean waves or rain) during meditations, which happen in silence. If you prefer to meditate with ambient sounds

in the background, consider Calm. YOU CAN GET TRAPPED IN A SUBSCRIPTION AFTER YOUR FREE TRIAL ENDS. As we do for any app’s trial period, we suggest that you put a reminder on your phone to

cancel it on (or before) the appropriate date. Headspace won’t remind you before the trial ends and your subscription begins, and your card will be charged. THE APP’S DATA USAGE ISN’T AS

CLEAR AS WE’D LIKE IT TO BE. Headspace told us it does not sell data to third parties. But the company was less clear about how it—like other apps—uses its tracking technologies for

marketing purposes and if it shares any specific data (for instance, if you’re using anxiety-focused meditations). Unlike other apps, Headspace lets you see some of the data it collects in

the My Data tab; you can find this under the app’s settings, where you can also opt out of personalized ads and email offers (opting in is the default setting). You can read more about

Headspace’s privacy policy here. BEST FOR SLEEP STORIES AND AMBIENT SOUNDS: CALM BEST FOR... CALM LESS-STRUCTURED MEDITATIONS, AMBIENT SOUNDSCAPES This app offers guided and unguided

meditations that focus on relaxing in general and keeping steady in tough times. It’s easy to personalize your experience. WHO IT’S FOR: If you have some experience with meditation and want

less-structured options or if you enjoy discovering new music or natural soundscapes to meditate to on your own, you might prefer Calm (iOS, Android). HOW MUCH IT COSTS: $70 per year

(individual), $100 per year (family) ITS LIBRARY IS ROBUST, BUT MORE DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE THAN THAT OF HEADSPACE. Calm’s guided meditations and mindfulness sessions, organized across

thematic sections, including Anxiety, Focus, and Sleep. THE APP IS FULL OF ECLECTIC RESOURCES. Calm is paired with Masterclass, in which experts teach lessons that focus around applying

mindfulness to everyday life. Calm also has a series of short interviews called The Spark that appear on the app and feature celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, from

Matthew McConaughey on “Living With Intention,” to Yvonne Orji on “Trusting Your Gut,” to Suze Orman on “Financial Intentions.” THE SLEEP STORIES ALONE CAN ROPE YOU IN. Calm’s Sleep category

is full of celebrity narration, including Cillian Murphy settling you in with a story about crossing Ireland on a scenic train ride and LeBron James describing a boy’s imaginative view of

the city from a fire escape. One long-term tester said she found a Calm subscription worthwhile “for the sleep stories alone.” IT’S ANOTHER GOOD OPTION FOR KIDS. Calm Kids, a dedicated

section within the app, offers a wide range of meditations and sleep wind-downs that are tailored for kids age 3 and up. IT HAS EXCELLENT BREATHING EXERCISES. Compared with Headspace, Calm

also offers more-extensive breathing exercises (choose from six types for different goals under Breathe) and generally allows you to track your progress more frequently and extensively.

Headspace features only one breath visualization exercise and implements only a monthly, stress level check-in that’s much less involved. FLAWS BUT NOT DEALBREAKERS THE APP CAN BE HARD TO

NAVIGATE. Our biggest problem with this app is that Calm’s user interface is cluttered and confusing overall. The sessions within each of the 10 sections aren’t alphabetized, and it’s not

always obvious what some refer to. Even the seemingly straightforward topics are, in fact, a mixed bag. Overall, a lot of the meditations and offerings listed in one section can be found in

multiple other sections in the app. For example, under Meditations, you will come across a subcategory called Mindfulness at Work; however, For Work is also its own section in the app. The

redundancy can be confusing. THE BEGINNER’S COURSE ISN’T EASY TO ACCESS. While the beginner’s course, “How to Meditate,” was instructive and engaging, we didn’t like that it isn’t featured

front and center on the main page as you’re introduced to the app. It also isn’t included in the app’s free version. Instead, you get an alternate beginner-focused course—“7 Days of

Calm”—which is much less extensive than the 30-session deep dive of “How to Meditate.” ITS DATA USAGE POLICY IS QUESTIONABLE. When we asked Calm about its privacy practices and data

protections, a spokesperson directed us to the Calm privacy policy, which didn’t, in fact, answer all of our questions. The policy introduces new questions, though, such as why the company

uses “your first name to make an educated guess about your gender” and “information about your activity to help determine the likelihood of you continuing to use our Services in the future.”

BUDGET PICK: HEALTHY MINDS PROGRAM BUDGET PICK HEALTHY MINDS PROGRAM A BASIC MEDITATION APP THAT’S FREE Unburdened by bells and whistles, this free app offers a clear sequence of

well-structured courses. It’s a great option for anyone who wants to see if meditation is right for them. WHO IT’S FOR: If you’re looking to learn the basics of meditation and track your

progress without spending any money, it’s the best option. HOW MUCH IT COSTS: Nothing IT’S CLEAR AND CONCISE. Compared with the free trials of our paid-app picks from Headspace and Calm, and

other free apps we’ve considered, Healthy Minds Program (iOS, Android) has a wider breadth of meditations. And they are organized in a clear, progressive fashion. The app’s

creators—mindfulness research scientists at the Center for Healthy Minds at the University of Wisconsin-Madison—built the curriculum from their own findings. We most appreciate how clear the

course sequencing is from the very beginning. Upon downloading the app, you take an assessment that scores you on Awareness, Connection, Insight, and Purpose. Those four tenets frame the

entire course structure: A foundation course teaches you the basics of meditation and mindfulness, and separate courses focus on each of the four key ideas. Ultimately, the goal is to

increase each of the four scores from your original assessment. IT’S SURPRISINGLY CUSTOMIZABLE. The app has helpful features typically found only in premium programs. For example, on many

meditations, you’re able to customize the length of the session (in five-minute increments) and choose from four teachers. Like Headspace and Calm, Healthy Minds Program also has a tracker

that records total time spent meditating on the app and the number of consecutive days you’ve meditated. THE DESIGN IS STRAIGHTFORWARD, AND THE COMPANY IS TRANSPARENT ABOUT DATA USAGE. We

like that Healthy Minds Program doesn’t constantly push subscription sign-ups or advertisements in the app, which most other free apps, or the free versions of paid apps, do. Healthy Minds

Program is also relatively explicit about the data it collects in its privacy policy, and it told us that it doesn’t share data with third parties. FLAWS BUT NOT DEALBREAKERS ITS LIBRARY IS

MUCH SMALLER THAN THOSE OF OUR PAID PICKS. This free app offers 55 situational meditations, four micro-sessions (two minutes or shorter), and one unguided meditation (the duration of which

can be toggled between five and 30 minutes) outside of the core course. Whereas Headspace and Calm are constantly adding new content and features, Healthy Minds Program’s core program

remains pretty consistent, with the exception of the occasional addition of a single-session meditation, usually tied to news events or the season. BUDGET PICK: SMILING MIND BUDGET PICK

SMILING MIND A FREE APP AIMED AT YOUNGER PEOPLE This free option packages well-structured beginners courses in a lighthearted, simple app. It’s a particularly good choice for kids and young

adults. WHO IT’S FOR: We recommend it for children, teens, or young adults who want to build mindfulness habits with a simple, straightforward app. HOW MUCH IT COSTS: Nothing IT’S SIMPLE YET

ENGAGING. Smiling Mind (iOS, Android) is meant to make mindfulness more accessible to younger audiences. With that in mind, the app layout is simple to navigate, and the courses are

straightforward and easy to follow along. IT HAS AN EXTENSIVE BEGINNER’S PROGRAM. Their Mindfulness Foundations section is a comprehensive course that focuses on five elements of mindfulness

practice: Awareness, attention, engaging the senses, noticing thoughts, and managing emotions. It has 35 sessions in total, and it’s simple to start at the top and work your way down. THE

APP HAS A HANDFUL OF EXTRA MEDITATIONS FOR SLEEP AND UNGUIDED PRACTICE. Unlike paid apps such as Headspace or Calm, Smiling Mind does not have an extensive meditation library. However, it

does offer a few meditations outside of the beginner courses that may be useful. The Sleep section has six sessions that are geared towards helping you fall asleep, and it has an extra Sleep

21 Night Program with 33 meditations all focused on helping you build a healthy habit around mindfulness right before bed. You can try the Extended Meditations section, which has minimal

guidance for more experienced meditators (ranging from 15 to 45 minutes), or the Unguided Meditation section, which just has a simple bell to mark the beginning and end of the session. FLAWS

BUT NOT DEALBREAKERS IT DOESN’T HAVE A LARGE LIBRARY. Like the other free app we recommend, Healthy Minds Program, Smiling Mind does not have hundreds of meditations to scroll through. Its

course list is pointed but basic, and you won’t stumble across extras like movement meditations or sleep stories. THE PRIVACY POLICY COULD BE BETTER. Smiling Mind’s privacy policy states

that the app will collect your data and share it with “providers who assist” in their services (one is Amazon Web Services). If you’d like to opt out, you have to email

[email protected], but it took about 20 days to hear back when we reached out. ANOTHER MEDITATION APP WORTH CONSIDERING IF YOU’RE AN EXPERIENCED MEDITATOR AND WANT A MINIMALIST FREE

APP, The Breathing App (iOS, Android) is a solid choice. The Breathing App is no-frills, with a couple of different visual and audio components paired with meditation timers. It is designed

to be customizable for duration and breath count. THE COMPETITION Aura ($60 per year), has a sweeping library of meditations, coaches, and music, among other things. However, we found it to

be confusing and often overwhelming to use—at least three pop-up windows block the screen every time we open the app. We felt that the meditation library prioritized quantity over quality:

The sessions seem to be recorded in a DIY setting, and the result is poor audio quality and hard-to-follow meditations. It also doesn’t have a clear path on the app to beginner meditations

or a beginner’s course to help guide you through the basics of establishing a habit. Balance ($70 per year) is free for the first year. We like the simple interface that puts the beginner’s

course front and center when you open the app, as well as a daily meditation to check in with your mood. The meditations are well organized and easy to navigate. However, the offerings of

this app are too light to pay for after the first year. Balance doesn’t have sleep stories, movement meditations, or free-form meditations that let you toggle the time limit and practice at

your own pace. Medito is a completely free app that has some features we’ve found in paid programs: the option to choose between three coaches and to download meditations to listen to them

offline. But the sessions had too much lead up about the mission of the program instead of jumping straight into the meditation itself. 1 Giant Mind (free) offers a subpar user experience.

When attempting to initially sign up for the app, we experienced a never-ending loop of pop up windows that prompted us to sign in again. We never made it fully into the app. Ten Percent

Happier ($100 per year), associated with Dan Harris’s book by the same name, offers several courses and one-session meditations. And they’re all taught by well-known meditation teachers—a

benefit we didn’t find with the other apps we tried. These guides include Joseph Goldstein, a leading Vipassana teacher in the United States, and Sharon Salzberg, author and renowned Western

Buddhist teacher. The app’s design is far less engaging than that of Headspace or Calm—it resembles a portal for self-help coaching, with the expert speaking directly to the camera or

interviewing someone else. Ten Percent Happier offers a chat feature that connects you with a meditation coach, who is theoretically available within a day to answer questions. We tried this

feature and found that a meditation coach did respond within 24 hours, but the advice seemed too impersonal and general to be useful. Insight Timer ($0 for free version, $60 per year for

premium version) offers a free version that boasts 100,000 meditations, and we like that it emphasizes community and enables you to engage with other users in real time. You can watch

teachers’ mediation and yoga sessions live, or you can host your own group meditation within the app. It also has thousands of discussion groups, music options, a very popular timer feature

(you can choose from different sounds), and the ability to track your progress—all for free. However, Insight Timer is not as organized as any of our picks, and it can feel frustrating

trying to navigate its large collection. The premium version, which is about $60, has the added benefit of enabling you to download its offerings and take courses (on stress, positivity,

spiritual enlightenment, and the like). Simple Habit ($90 per year) has a clean, functional design that was a joy to interact with. But we found its meditations scattered and had a hard time

figuring out where to start. It doesn’t have a beginner’s course to act as a jumping-off point—instead, the app appears more goal-oriented (relieve anxiety, live healthier, build

relationships, and so forth). For the annual cost of its subscription, you don’t get as much content from this app as with Headspace or Calm. Simple Habit’s lack of course sequencing, as

well as its focus on situational meditations, didn’t feel very helpful or promising for sustained long-term use. Plus, it offers much less free content than other apps we tried. Waking Up

($130 per year) is a popular meditation app created by author and podcast host Sam Harris. The courses are divided into Theory (in which you learn about the theory of meditation and listen

to Harris and other experts speak on related topics), Practice (which includes a series of guided meditations), and Life (which is a series of twelve situational meditations and

conversations with personalities and Sam Harris talking about life). While the app is full of options (timers, downloadable content, and the ability to turn background music on and off),

many of the more than 300 meditations take on a more-conversational tone than what you’d hear in Headspace or Calm. Using this app can feel like listening to a podcast, which might be a

let-down for some. We did not test Oak due to its accessibility on iOS devices only. _Alex Arpaia, Thorin Klosowski, and Justin Redman contributed reporting. __This article was edited by

Tracy Vence and Kalee Thompson._ SOURCES * Diana Winston, director of mindfulness education at UCLA’s Mindful Awareness Research Center, phone interviews, May 7, 2018, and September 28, 2021

* Judson Brewer, MD, PhD, director of research at the UMass Memorial Health Center for Mindfulness, phone interviews, May 4, 2018, and October 1, 2021 * David Nichtern, senior Buddhist

teacher in the lineage of Chögyam Trungpa, Zoom interview, May 3, 2021