Despite Joe Biden's victory, congressional Democrats are upset. Bolstered by President Trump's unpopularity and the pandemic, polls had showed Democrats possibly taking control of

the Senate, expanding their majority in the House of Representatives and Biden winning convincingly in several swing states. But Democrats didn't gain a majority in the Senate. They

lost a handful of seats in the House. And though Biden won the popular vote, it was a close contest in several battleground states. Tom Perez, who chairs the Democratic National Committee,

calls the 2020 elections "a historic, decisive victory" for Democrats overall. He argues the situation should be compared with late 2017 when 15 states had Democratic governors and

gains this year in the traditionally red states of Georgia and Arizona, where Biden leads. It presages a fight between the party's centrists and those on the left over how to win

elections: Appeal to moderate independents who might vote Republican, or try to get progressive nonvoters to vote. Now attention shifts to Georgia, which is holding two Senate runoff

elections in January. Unless there's an upset, Republicans will keep control of the Senate in 2021. Here are excerpts of the interview: ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, THERE WAS SOMETHING NORTH

OF 70 MILLION VOTES. IS THE COUNTRY SENDING YOU SOMETHING OF A MIXED MESSAGE HERE? Well, I often said when I was out on the campaign stump, Steve, that our goals are to defeat Trump and to

defeat Trumpism. Defeating Trump required 270 electoral votes or more, and we succeeded in that. Defeating Trumpism is a longer-term challenge because Trumpism predates Trump. And I would

argue that Trumpism and some of the underlying challenges there in no small measure may date back 400 years. And we need to understand that. And I can think of no better person to lead that

challenge than the president-elect. He is a uniter. WHAT IS THE STRATEGY FOR DEMOCRATS IN THESE UPCOMING GEORGIA RUNOFF RACES, WHICH COULD DECIDE CONTROL OF THE SENATE? To expand the

electorate. And Stacey Abrams has led that effort dating back to her race for [Georgia] governor in 2018. You look at the number of first-time voters in Georgia in 2020. It's a

remarkable fusion coalition. We are organizing all over that state, making sure that people register to vote. And you can bet your bottom dollar that we will continue to do that. THE

DISAPPOINTMENTS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HAVE SPARKED A LIVELY DEBATE: ONE LAWMAKER BLAMING "DEFUND THE POLICE" AND THE SOCIALISM LABEL FOR HURTING DEMOCRATS; JIM CLYBURN OF

SOUTH CAROLINA SAYING PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT DISTRICTS NEED TO RUN DIFFERENT CAMPAIGNS; ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST, PUSHING BACK ON THAT. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL THAT?

Well, we are a Democratic Party that is a big tent, and I welcome that. And I look at the platform of the Democratic Party and it reflects, I think, the bold level of inclusion across

America. It's a platform that stands for the notion that every person matters, that we should trust science over fiction, that we can expand access to health care, that health care

should be a right for all, not a privilege for a few. And this was the platform that won for Joe Biden. It's a very ambitious platform. It's a bold platform. It's a platform

that we can all embrace as Democrats. And the discussions that we're having now, again, the challenges were born out of our success in 2018. We won so many seats in areas that were

beet-red districts. And so it was going to be difficult when Donald Trump was on the ballot to sustain some of those victories because you had people coming out in force. Again, I think

it's really important to look at the broader contexts of where we are now electorally versus where we were at the end of 2016. _Bo Hamby, Arezou Rezvani and Phil Harrell produced and

edited the audio interview._ Copyright 2020 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.