The Great Zapfino is a circus performer whose act is called "The Leap For Life." When the book opens, he's climbing up a ladder, preparing to jump off a high-dive onto a

trampoline. But when the ringmaster hypes up Zapfino's terrifying 10-story dive, Zapfino gets scared. He can't make the leap. Instead, he climbs back down the ladder, goes to the

airport and starts a new life in a new city, with a new job — far, far away from the circus — and tries to overcome his fear. And all of that, everything that happens after Zapfino climbs

back down the ladder, happens wordlessly. Mac Barnett wrote 73 words in total for _The Great Zapfino_ and nine of them are "Zapfino." "It's definitely the shortest

in the details. "That whole section was fascinating to me," says Frazee. "There was this whole middle to be puzzled out." Passing off the middle of the story was a huge

act of trust, says Barnett, but he and Frazee have known each other for more than a decade. "Marla and I are both picture book obsessives," says Barnett. "I have so many

memories of just like standing near a table full of snacks, talking to Marla for an hour or more, and the party sort of closing down around us as we just got lost in talking about what

picture books we were reading, what picture books we loved as kids, what informed our work and how these things actually work. The magic of the form." In addition to being an

illustrator, Marla Frazee is also the author-illustrator of her own children's books, including _Roller Coaster_, _The Boss Baby_, and _Boot & Shoe._ She was awarded a Caldecott

Honor for _All the World_ and _A Couple of Boys Have the Best Week Ever. _ Mac Barnett is himself a two-time Caldecott Honor winner for _Extra Yarn_, and _Sam and Dave Dig A Hole _— both

illustrated by Jon Klassen. Barnett and Frazee say they were excited to finally get to work with each other. "I remember one of Mac's books... I was so jealous that I didn't

have the opportunity to be the illustrator," says Frazee. "Then when I saw this text, I jumped at it." When they started working on _The Great Zapfino,_ Frazee and Barnett had

a long discussion. "It was more an emotional and philosophical talk about how the book worked and how the book felt, than it was about any sort of technical stuff," says Barnett.

He also gave her free reign to ignore all of his notes and suggestions. "We were on the same page about what we wanted to accomplish," says Barnett, "and how that was executed

was totally up to Marla." One of those suggestions: to have Zapfino blend into everyday life after leaving the circus. Frazee disagreed. "I wanted him to remain Zapfino," she

says. But where could Zapfino go in his circus outfit and still fit in? Frazee immediately thought of Venice Beach, California. She had recently seen a photo of three kids rollerblading on

a beach boardwalk wearing capes, and immediately knew Zapfino would blend in. The other thing Frazee had to decide: Zapfino's job. Since standard children's books are only 32 pages

long, she knew it would be inconvenient to waste valuable real estate having Zapfino commute to and from work. "I was real excited when I kind of came up with the idea that he could

live on the top floor of this apartment building and be the elevator operator. Which would mean he doesn't have to commute back and forth too far," says Frazee. As an elevator

operator, Zapfino meets all kinds of people: happy families, rich people, poor people, children, people who fight, old people, people who are nice to him, people who are not, people with

their dogs. He rides up and down in the elevator all day, every day, possibly for years — encountering a vast sea of humanity and having all sorts of experiences. "Just finding himself

in that process and overcoming fear," says Frazee. "Which is really what I think the book is addressing." She envisioned _The Great Zapfino_ as a graphic novel for young

children — repeating panels of Zapfino in the elevator car help show the passage of time. And she decided to illustrate it without color. "There was something about the anonymous nature

of what Zapfino craved that felt like maybe it should proceed in black and white," she says. She used a black Prismacolor pencil on Dura-Lar for a smooth, dark line on a velvety soft

paper. When he first saw Frazee's sketches, Mac Barnett gasped. "Marla wrote so much and added so much to this world and to Zapfino's character," he says. "It's

such a wonderful, weird feeling to be surprised by a book you wrote." For her part, Frazee says she was grateful for the creative space in this book. "This one felt so personal to

me," she says. During their earlier conversation about the book, Frazee says she asked Barnett where this story about Zapfino had come from. Barnett told her that he was interested in

writing about a character who feels out of place in his own story. That idea is what stayed with Frazee. "I wrote it down. I thought about it a lot," says Frazee. "Because we

all feel that way sometimes." "It's a feeling that probably characterizes my whole life more than any other," she says. "Like, I never have felt ready to do the

thing I was supposed to do next. And I have to go through all kinds of acrobatics to get to the place of being able to do the thing." Even though most kids are probably familiar with

the feeling — metaphorical or real — of standing at the edge of a high dive, being unable to jump. It's unusual, at least in children's books, for the main character to fail to do

the one thing he is supposed to do. That's why, Barnett explains, the narration drops out. "This wasn't supposed to happen," he says. "Nobody was prepared for

Zapfino to do what he did." Maybe there was text for a whole other book written, one where Zapfino does the exciting thing we all expected him to do, but he flipped the script, and now

we have to watch the rest of his story unfold in silence. "I love to write about characters not rising to the challenge, at least the first time they try something," says Barnett.

"And failure, I think, is interesting to me over and over again." Zapfino, of course, is able to overcome his fears by the end of the book. But both Marla Frazee and Mac Barnett

hope that kids — and adults — can learn from Zapfino that it's ok to fail, and to not do what everyone expects you to do. "It is brave to say 'No, I'm not

ready,'" says Frazee. "That's not a story that's told very often to us, as we're growing up. And I think it's important." _Samantha Balaban and

Melissa Gray produced and edited this interview for broadcast._ Copyright 2023 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.